Interview with John Dunne about climbing, coaching and life, by Steve Long.

 

John Dunne is one of the most famous characters in British climbing,

with a string of first ascents of some of the hardest climbs in Britain, ranging from desperate bolted testpieces to serious "trad" climbs.

His latest adventure has been masterminding the creation of the

immensely popular Manchester Climbing Centre.

 

 

The MLTUK Chief Officer recently interviewed John Dunne, who

allowed MLTA exclusive use of the original transcript.

Above: John Dunne and the

BMC Chief Executive, Dave Turnbull brave out a chalk storm

   

What advice would you give to ambitious novice climbers?

Don’t get obsessed by working your way through the grades, just get out and play on the rock. A lot of new climbers haven’t gone through the tradition of easy routes in the hills or the gritstone crags - they are coming in to quite steep training walls and gaining a lot of strength and fitness very quickly, but missing a lot of the basic techniques.

In any sport, if you take a bunch of youngsters and coach them to be athletes you should start with a thorough grounding in the very basic skills.
So what do you mean by the basics?
I mean the ability to “read” the rock and develop fluid movement: linking eye to foot to hand and just moving in a style that’s unique to your build - size and shape - and developing a natural flowing movement. There’s no set way to becoming a good climber, no set way to move; it’s all about shape and size. That often gets forgotten in training articles:  that baseline understanding is what people need to do before they progress to campus boards and desperately hard stuff; structured training is pointless until you have excellent technique .
So how can somebody discover what is actually their personal style?
The best way to learn in any sport is to dilute it to a very simple level so you’re not stressing your body. Nice easy climbs with big holds will let you move intuitively; you’re not stopping to think, you’re just doing it. Looking back at my career as a climber I went through every grade and did perhaps 50 routes at each level before moving on. Often now you get people who jump form E1 to E4 to E7 but they might struggle on a V-diff chimney because they are too specialised.
But how can people develop this if they are already climbing middle grade routes?
Take my computer skills; I’m doing quite advanced tasks yet I don’t know my way around the keyboard.  I just wish I could start again and just go from A to B to C to D but it’s hard to go back when you’re already at C. A lot of people’s perception of developing is very grade orientated; it’s all about linear progression. Go and have some fun on some easy classics.
So what is your personal style?
Being a big guy I need to get the weight off my arms and onto my feet, so footwork played a massive part. Sometimes  I see world-class climbers now who weigh 9 stone, and think “If only you used your feet the sky would be the limit!”  So for me a genetic disadvantage has proved to be a strength in the long run.
As a coach what would you recommend people to aspire to?

The best climbers move effortlessly, it’s like running a car for as many miles as possible with what’s in the tank. That to me is what makes a really good climber: efficiency.

If you were going to get a group of kids who were 8 or 9 and coach them to be athletes you would start with the very basic skills and they would be vastly superior climbers.

I read a lot of books as a kid; body building and athletics and the best people were good at everything. Genetically I was strong but if you look at climbing now and look at John Dunne compared to a potential professional footballer at the Man U academy they would say “John you’re going to be too big go and do another sport go and be a 400m runner because you’re going to be too big for a climber” and I think that is now true. To hang on these super-steep walls that are 50m long you’re going to have to weigh nine stone so now we’re very much getting down to where you look at a kid on a football field and say the mother and father are both five foot – you ain’t going to make the grade in central midfield when you get to 18 you’re going to be too small to make the grade.    So it will become an art like gymnastics.
Yes but the recreational end, it would be tragic if some kid got told to give up because of that…

Yes but there are two ends to the game and most people if you can climb at a modest grade you can go anywhere in the world. You can usually get to the top of most things by an easy or a hard route, so you can have all those things, travelling, views, experiences, bivouacking but you’ll do it by a different means

The best climbers move effortlessly, it’s like running a car for as many miles as possible with what’s in the tank. That to me is what makes a really good climber: efficiency.
When you were climbing the super-hard sports routes you were also doing the trad routes, at that time that was unusual. Did you consciously seek out lots of different kinds of rock?
I got into it from being a young mountaineer and realising that I was actually quite a good rock climber. I realised from early days that you needed very good footwork. I found I couldn’t jam, or I wasn’t very good at laybacking so I worked specifically on my weak points. I noticed at a wall people would often only do the things that they had already go very polished, whereas I was willing to bumble around and fall off stuff until I was pretty well good at everything and that is a really hard challenge. It’s a big bash on the ego but it’s the best bash you can take in any walk of life. Sort your weaknesses out and try to be a rounded performer. Play to your weaknesses! If people can accept that they’re going to be better at not just climbing but in everything they do. So for me, being a big guy I need to get the weight off my arms and onto my feet so footwork played a massive part in how I got good, really.
Do you think you have taken that willingness to confront your weaknesses into other bits of your life? Were you always good at doing business or did you say to yourself “I overcame this or that weakness in climbing so I’ll take that into this job?
I wouldn’t like to say I like to spend all my time doing things I’m no good at! There are things that I’m absolutely dreadful at that I’d rather say “forget it” but I think that what climbing is good at for any level is it teaches you a lot about yourself and you go to think “well I’m not very good at that, but I am good at this”. Understanding what your strengths and weaknesses are. People say to me “if only I had such good footwork.” I say anybody can have good footwork, absolutely anybody. It’s just a matter of putting the time and effort in and it will improve your standard by grades and grades.

I imagine I’ve done over 100 masterclass sessions with a big emphasis on footwork and I would say 98% of people on those classes, the people paying for advice, just wanted to brush past that and learn how they could crank up a harder 6c on their next trip to a sport crag. I’m thinking “You’re missing the point here, guys, you won’t be climbing 6c, you’ll be doing a 7a+ but it’s the sort of walking before you run thing. It’s easy to avoid for a youngster, but coming into it as an adult it’s quite difficult to stomach really.

 

John Dunne's wall in Manchester.

 

You’ve said that good footwork is essential, what do you do about footwear? Edging shoes, slippers, something comfortable, or do you have the whole lot?

I’ve got a horrific bunion on my left foot so I’ve been doing something wrong! I think what I’ve realised is you need a level of comfort. I can climb reasonably hard in shoddy footwear, but you want good footwear in good condition. What I play to now is if my toes are buckling at the end the shoes are too small: for years I crammed my feet into shoes that were too small. My feet are in a bit of a state now so I’ve had to size up and I’ve thought “Oh my god I’m not going to be able to stand on tiny edges”, but you can. I think the only negative I’ve ever had in any climbing experience I’ve ever had; great day’s climb, great body feel, great views Christ my feet are killing. Especially something like Half Dome or whatever, this horrible feeling. I think apart from the very cutting edge, tiny dinky little things where you need something quite specific. I did Lord of the Flies in a pair of boots that were a size too big and at the time it didn’t seem to be a problem. People get hung up now about having the latest stickies…

 My view is it’s about moving efficiently and getting as much weight off your arms: I see really strong – world class climbers who weigh nine stone and I think “well actually if you had my footwork – I know it sounds quite arrogant this, but – you’d actually be a 9b climber. Genetics are obviously going to play a part but even some of the very best climbers could be better.

It’s actually a strength to have a weakness. Because the light person can get away without really using his feet he doesn’t learn to. I’ve benefited from being heavy, but you reach a ceiling where you think it would be nice to have that footwork and be light. 

Maybe with your suggested training regime people will be able to get there...

Yes but in the end there are no perfect athletes, no perfect climbers. That’s why standards keep rising. But I’m absolutely sure that there will be somebody who is genetically capable of running a sub-9 second 100 meters and we will see something similar in climbing.

And finally, what would you say to people who don’t want to climb any harder?

If you can climb at a modest grade you can go anywhere in the world. You can get to the top of most things by an easy or a hard route, so you can have all of the best experiences; friendship, travelling, views, bivouacking but you’ll get there by a different route.